Tag: Friendship

In it for the Long Haul | Ep. 35

September 19, 2023September 11, 2023
by Larger Story

Three Friends Reconnecting: The Power of a Redemptive Chat Between Spiritual Friends. Conversing with soul friends on the journey toward home.

Bios:

Anthony Vartulli – Anthony Vartuli has been gifted and called as a shepherd of God’s people, serving in various capacities over the past four decades: pastor, spiritual director, and hospice chaplain. He holds a Master of Theology degree from Dallas Theological Seminary, a Master of Biblical Counseling from Colorado Christian University, and a Doctor of Ministry in Spiritual Formation from Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary. He is married to Diane who together have three adult children. Anthony and Diane reside in the Denver Colorado area.

Duncan Sprague- Since 2007, Duncan has served as a bi-vocational minister with International Christian Ministries (ICM), Compassion International, Cadence International, and Larger Story (LS), where he regularly contributes to LS vlogs, webinars, and podcasts. Duncan brings his passion for trinitarian-relating and relational development, along with years of rich cross-cultural experience to every person and place he serves. Since 1994, Colorado has been home to Duncan and Angie and is the birthplace of their four adult children.

Tim Burke – Tim Burke played professional baseball from 1980 until 1993. For the last 20 years Tim has been involved in sports ministry serving players in the NHL. He and his wife Christine live in Florida with their adult special needs adopted daughter.

Links:

SoulTalk

Reading & Relating book club

The SoulCare Experience Study

Transcript

Anthony Vartuli: Welcome, everyone who is listening. My name is Anthony Vartuli. I am gratefully part of Larger Story Ministries in some capacity. I know Kep Crabb, he’s part of my small group. I’m very grateful for the work that is being done in Larger Story. This is a podcast that’s part of the Relational Spirituality series.

I was asked by Kep at some point to do one of these podcasts, and immediately what came to my mind was to meet with these two dear friends of mine, Tim Burke and Duncan Sprague. I’ll let them introduce themselves to you, but I just want to think about a question that Larry always used to ask.

Tim, Duncan, the question is, where’s your red dot? How are you coming into the time? The red dot idea, the way that Larry talked about it, was you go into a mall and you don’t know where your store is. You look on the map and you see the red dot and it says you are here. So the question is, where are you? As you come into this listening to us, where are we? I’ll tell you right now I’m excited, but if I’m to be honest, I’m a little bit nervous because we’re coming into this unscripted, this is not something that we prepared a lot for; we are trusting that the Spirit’s going to lead us in His direction as we talk about something really neat that the Spirit did among the three of us for a good three years, maybe even longer than that, with the hopes that you find something good and encouraging through what the Lord had given us and really continues to give us as friends. The three of us are friends now – soul friends – however Larry might call it. We’re friends for the journey, it’s a wonderful thing. I’m going to let these guys introduce themselves and then we’ll just jump into it, whoever wants to go first.

Tim Burke: Larry Crabb is our common denominator. He’s the one that is responsible for getting us together. Christine and I’s lives came crashing down and God put Larry right in the midst of that. I met him and he started walking with me, and then God used him in unbelievable ways. Then we became dear friends and one of the dearest times of our lives was our times with Larry. I remember the three of us and our wives at Larry’s for a Superbowl Party and I was winning.

Duncan Sprague: Not much of a Superbowl.

Tim Burke: No. Anthony was the one that had the idea of us getting together, I believe. I had no idea. I didn’t know you guys that well, but I had no idea that it would turn out to be as great and meaningful and fulfilling as it was.

Duncan Sprague: Yeah. I think all of us came into that time hungry for something. I think God had already raised an appetite for us to have a Spiritual father. I think all of us would say Larry filled a place that he was a friend, but he was also a step or two ahead of us in the ways that we were processing life. He had gone through some of his own midlife crashes and we’d gotten a front row seat to that. We watched this man walk with dignity, with humility, with some angry outbursts. It was all there. He just let us have a front row seat to it. There was something attractive about that, where I think all of us found ourselves mutually encouraged to have a man like that pour into us.

There we were February 2nd, 2014, going to watch the Denver Broncos beat the Seattle Seahawks and that didn’t happen. In fact, it was one of the most lopsided games, even early on in the game. Maybe that was a gift to us. It wasn’t much of a game and the Broncos got demolished, so we had a lot of great conversation. There was an itch that all of us had that Anthony said, Hey, we should carry this conversation forward. Do you guys have any interest in doing Saturday mornings together? And that was the beginning of a number of years of regularly getting together when we were all in town at a local Panera back in the back corner at the same place, same time every week. It was just a rich corner. I still go into that place and I can’t help but think that corner is a sacred place for me. There’s many sacred conversations that began there.

Anthony Vartuli: I look back and I can see that spot as well. When we started going – tell me if you guys would agree – we didn’t really have much of a plan, it was really more to just be together and, like what we’re doing today, just see where the Spirit would take us. I just remember the time feeling very unforced. It wasn’t something that we were trying to pull off but rather something that the Spirit was doing among us and we were together to try to discover what it was the Spirit was saying.

Tim, you mentioned something interesting about your life falling apart, and Duncan and I could definitely put words to how our lives have fallen apart in the past, and how Larry, as Duncan mentioned, had been a spiritual father to us walking us through some very difficult times.

Mine was a church that was a beautiful thing, but ended up ending really hard and difficult for me and put me into a time of transition where I just had no idea what God was doing. I was scared. I had been a pastor my whole life, I wasn’t really trained for anything else. I was finding it difficult to find any jobs at that time in my life. Providentially, I would say this group between the three of us started and it felt like God was going before us and it was truly a gift. You guys continue to be a gift of course, to me, and I know the feeling is mutual, but I always just sensed that He was going before us, and what a sweet gift it’s been for a long time.

Tim Burke: It was. When you think back on it, we all went through difficult stuff financially and with jobs and kids and all sorts of things. I think what made it special was what you said Anthony, we had no game plan. It was just, you know what, we’re just three guys, we love Jesus, and we haven’t figured this life out yet, but let’s just get together. Then the Lord just takes it from there. Every single time out of the countless times we’ve gotten together, I would walk away so much more encouraged, so much more hopeful, more full of life. It just stirred the Spirit in me to where it’s, you know what? I can make it. I can keep going. Anthony’s doing it. Duncan’s doing it. We’re going through these hard times and God keeps doing whatever He does. I always walked away encouraged.

Duncan Sprague: I think there was a change. My red dot when we first started getting together is different than my red dot now when I get together online with you two. All day yesterday, we had difficulties trying to get on and I was so frustrated after we got off. I was going, why didn’t that work? We have to give this gift of our friendship to the world. Then I thought maybe that was its own pressure to do something, show something. I thought God just gave us a gift. We haven’t chatted together in a year, maybe longer. Tis is what I love about friendships like this. You pick right up and you just keep going. You know that a whole year has gone by and we haven’t tracked with each other, but there’s something about walking with somebody below the surface, under the waterline, where you go, I know this person’s soul.

As I look at the screen, I’m looking at two friends now. When we first started meeting together, I thought, this is my friend Anthony Vartuli. Anthony and I go way back, to graduate school with Larry. He already had a master’s degree coming into it. I was going after my first, and then he kept going. He went on, did a doctoral piece, and I’m sitting there going, my friend is smart. He’s read a lot of books, he’s written some. My red dot then was, I have to be impressive with my friend. I was more concerned about being impressive than being a friend. That was the same pressure as yesterday. I wanted people to be impressed with the three of us.

I love that right now, Larger Story is doing the book of the month is SoulTalk. I just went back through it. Tim, your story is in that book and it’s Larry talking about his red dot as he meets with you. He tells some of your story. You’ve been at the top of your career, as high as you can go, a pitcher in the National League. I remember thinking, oh man this guy has really achieved something. The pressure when we first started meeting… Larry, I love the way he describes his red dot in getting with you. Larry says, I’m pretty good with words. I wonder if I can zing a few past him and get him to strike out on me. You just see the pressure.

Anthony Vartuli: I remember that story.

Duncan Sprague: I love the fact that now as we get together, I don’t see my former pitching friend and my highly educated friend. I see my friends. There’s something that God does in a community, a band of brothers, a band of sisters, when real life gets shared all of a sudden. I work with military ministry as one of the things I’m doing. At some point, the stripes come off the arms and the rank and everything comes off. All of a sudden we’re all standing at the foot of Jesus and it’s level ground. That’s what I loved with what Larry created a space for. He just was not that enamored with titles and positions and things like that.

My red dot now is I’m spending time this morning with two of my close friends and I can’t wait for the world to see that these are my friends. I think of Paul, I think 82 names are associated with him. Paul and Barnabas, Paul and Timothy, Paul and … I sit there and go, if somebody ever tells the gospel according to Duncan, they’re going to see Duncan and Tim, Duncan and Anthony. These are going to be front row folks that I did life with. We’ve never done ministry externally together, but none of us would be doing the ministry we do apart from the ministry we do internally with one another. So that’s where my red dot stirs me.

Tim Burke: I love that.

Anthony Vartuli: That’s great.

Tim Burke: It’s funny, you were talking about life falling apart and transition and all this stuff. I remember through tough times with you guys, it was back 2014 when we started. The three of us went through difficult times together, all of us. They were just difficult times.

Now I am in a transition in these next few months. The Lord’s going to have to figure something out with me. I’m in the hockey world and walking with hockey players and stuff, but my role is being handed over to a hockey couple. It’s a step up, it’s a step forward, but it’s hard on me financially and all this stuff. The Lord’s going to figure it out. I remember going through this in 2015 with you guys, and I am much more on solid ground nowadays. I’m prepared to go into this knowing, Lord, I’ve seen you do this so many times in our lives and others’ and Antohony’s and Duncan’s. He’s going to do something. I know it. His track record is crazy. In two days from this taping it is going to be our 41st birthday. Christine and I came to the Lord 41 years ago, August 25th.

Anthony Vartuli: The two of you came to Christ together, at the same time?

Tim Burke: Yeah, that was awesome. In the minor leagues in Buffalo, New York. Buffalo, that’ll drive you to the wall.

Anthony Vartuli: No offense to anyone who’s from Buffalo listening to this.

Duncan Sprague: My son is getting ready to move up to upstate New York, so I’ll make sure that he hears that.

Tim Burke: I was just thinking while you were talking, Duncan, I’m going to have times of panic, but I’ve seen Him work so much over my 41 years of knowing Him. He’s been at work a lot longer than that. His track record goes back thousands of years to eternity past and He’s been flawless. It doesn’t mean it doesn’t come without hardship, but it’s going to be okay. I think through those times, the three of us together, I’m feeling some good fruit from it right now, just from coming into a transition time, it just feels different than it did back then. And that’s really cool.

Anthony Vartuli: You say you feel like you’re on solid ground, can you say more about that?

Tim Burke: I feel like I don’t know what the Lord is going to do. I’m not sure how this is going to work out. I have no answers, no possibilities. We have to wait two more years untill I can get to social security time. But the Lord, He just knows. He does it. He loves us, He cares, He will do something. It’s exciting too, because it hasn’t kicked in yet. I’m still getting paid a little longer. It might change in the next month or two, but I know that He will do something and it’ll be so odd. It’ll be so weird that it will be obviously from Him and then Christine and I will sit back and go, Lord, you are incredible. That’s what it’s all about.

Anthony Vartuli: As you’re talking here I’m remembering a couple of things. One, Duncan, how ironic you would talk about how you felt about us when we first were meeting. I truly did feel intimidated by the two of you. I felt in some ways, I was lagging behind. Maybe that was true in some ways, but as we continued to meet, I would say the same thing you said, Duncan, we truly became brothers. I’d use this word to describe both of you and that is an increase in solidness that I see in both of you guys that comes from dealing with very uncertain times in the middle of the uncertainty. I was just reading this in one of Larry’s books, When God’s Ways Make No Sense. He talked about three different ways of approaching life. You’ll remember these.

The first one is resistant run, which comes from Jonah. The second one is distort and deny, which was Paul before he was converted. And then Habakkuk, which was tremble and trust. It felt like when we were together, we were learning that third way of being trembling and trusting because we were all dealing with job uncertainties – that’s just so difficult on a man in general – and the three of us had been ministering for years and then hit with uncertainties like that.

What does it mean to tremble and trust? I felt like we did this together. We felt the freedom to really struggle in the present moment together. A lot of times what happens in groups, at least groups that I have been in, there’s no place for present struggle. You can talk about past struggles, but to be able to talk about present struggles being resolved and then have that response be one of safety and not people trying to fix you or give you advice or throw some Bible verses at you. That just was such a blessing to me to be able to freely struggle in the present moment and really learn. I’m still learning; trembling and trusting. There’s things I’m facing today that feel uncertain and, just having the freedom to tremble about it and tremble about these things and then the trust comes as well, but I think that was one of the gifts of our time together and it lingers today.

Tim Burke: Yeah. I think that left on our own, we’re going to tremble longer before we trust, but when we’re walking together, trust comes hand in hand when we’re walking together and we’re in it together. I know Anthony struggled with this stuff and Duncan, I know he’s working, having to redo bathrooms and all this stuff while doing his ministry and trying to fill in the gaps and it’s hard but we just remind each other of God and Him being in the midst of our lives. Every time we got together, it was a perspective fixer, because if I focus on myself too long, my perspective is going to be off. That’s all there is to it. But when we get together, I go, oh yeah, God, I remember Him, I forgot about that guy.

Anthony Vartuli: Oh, yeah. God.

Tim Burke: Oh, my gosh. He is actually bigger than my problem and He loves me. When we’re together, then trust comes out of the tremble.

Duncan Sprague: Yeah. There were plenty of times when we borrowed trust from one another because we go, I don’t have it in and of myself. I’m too weak right now and I’ve got blinders on. I’m not seeing the bigger picture. Part of getting together was confessing our sins. Sometimes it was the sin of, I’m just willfully not seeing God in the middle of this. I’m willfully choosing to cling on to my own control, my own management, my own whatever.

I love, Anthony, that you brought up the idea that what keeps us from trusting is also a refusal to tremble. I often wonder, what keeps me from trembling in the middle of this? It’s my own self confidence. I can handle this. A real man would deal with this. There is a sense in which, even my red dot with you guys, I was intimidated by what you had done, thinking that somehow God was super impressed with what you guys had done because I was, but then to realize that God is not impressed with the same thing.

You said don’t quote Bible verses, but the one that does come to mind is about trembling, and it’s what I think that God will esteem us doing great things. At the end of Isaiah, He rebukes Israel for thinking they had done a great thing. He says, listen, guys, heaven is my throne and the earth is my footstool. Where’s the house that you can build for me? They think that He’s going to be impressed by building a great monument for Him. He says, this is not what I esteem. I don’t esteem the great accomplishments. This is the one that I esteem, or the one that I lift up, the one who is humble, and who is contrite, and who trembles at my word. I think that’s what we learned together. We learned what humility looks like in the middle of when all of us faced job and career shifts, transitions while we’re in the middle of it.

I call it my midlife crashes, where all of a sudden we lose a step. We got younger people who think faster and are quicker on their feet, taking our jobs. Instead of seeing them as competition, stepping aside, I love what you just said, Tim, about this couple that’s coming in. Oh, it’s an upgrade. You’re saying, I want to launch them. I don’t want to stand in their way. I don’t want to do a Saul thing with David. I want to launch them into what God has called them to and see my transition is shifting that now in the season that we’re all in entering right now is we are in a season of launching others. It’s no longer about our accolades, no longer about us getting our name on the billboards and things like that. I have to die so that someone else can live. And God has gifted us to be encouragers. We got enough old men out there who are saying, “Oh, this generation that’s around right now? Oh, man. Problems? In my day…” Instead of doing that we get to be those who are launching a new generation saying, keep going for it. Tim, you always, at some point in all of our times together, you’d always say the same phrase. You know what I’m going to say?

Tim Burke: Yeah.

Anthony Vartuli: Yeah.

Duncan Sprague: Go for it.

Tim Burke: We’re still here.

Duncan Sprague: That’s it. We’re still here.

Tim Burke: We’re still here. We would have such difficult times and we didn’t see answers or anything. And then maybe we don’t see answers the next time we get together, but it’s Hey, here we are, we’re persevering, we’re pressing on, we’re maybe not enjoying it, but dang, we’re in this together. I found a lot of encouragement in that.

To change the subject, I just thought of something. I’m encouraged so much these days by something Duncan, you and Anthony talked about early on in us getting together that I had not heard before. I think it goes back to Larry or something, but Isaiah, where it says we’ll soar on wings like eagles and then run and not grow weary and then walk and not faint. Maybe it was Larry’s interpretation, how did you word it? It’s kind of the evolution of life.

Duncan Sprague: Yeah. The crux of it was, I was preaching my last message at a church years ago that imploded and I ended the message by saying do you want to rise up on wings like eagles? Wait on the Lord. Do you want to fly like an eagle? I can’t remember saying that, but my whole vision at that point was that the goal of the Christian faith was to rise up on wings like eagles. Afterwards, Philip Yancey was part of our congregation, and he walked up to me. All he said was, you do know there’s more to that passage, right? That’s what caused me to pause and I went and reread it. A few weeks later, we were at a mutual friends’ house. I said, do you think Isaiah is giving us a glimpse of what it means to transition through life through the soaring years? We’ve all had soaring years. The young men who leave the nest and go out and find their wings and soar. Then we have our running years, and that’s when our wings get clipped and we’re no longer soaring. Now we are on the ground running through the trees, but we still have the energy to run, and we’re running hard. There’s just more obstacles in the way. Some people call it midlife crisis, I call it midlife crashes. All three of us have had doozies of midlife crashes. And now all of us are transitioning into that last stage where we are walking with the strength not to pass out.

The thing that I love is, when you say, we’re still here, Larry said, I want to make sure that we say this at my funeral. The thing that he hoped would be said is he never quit. And it’s the same idea as we’re still here. We’re not quitting. Paul would say, we are not those who shrink back. That’s the thing that I see in both of you, you’re not men who shrink back. I needed men who were leaning into the transitions like you are right now, Tim, leaning into them going, we’re coming into our walking years and I want to make sure we’re walking in love. I want to make sure we’re not walking as grumpy old men. We’ve got enough angry evangelicals out there who are complaining about this generation and all the divisions. I want to see old men and women who are finishing well like Larry did, and that was said of him. Finish without quitting.

Anthony Vartuli: I actually remember another thing that Tim said. Before I get to that, were you going to say more, Tim, about that progression?

Tim Burke: No, that’s what I was thinking. Finishing well. That’s what we really want to do, the three of us. And we’ve helped each other along the way. But we still need each other and the Lord, or I know I won’t finish well. Christine is amazing with us walking together, her and I. And it’s not guaranteed. There’s too many examples in the Bible of guys that were pretty dang awesome. But they didn’t finish well.

Anthony Vartuli: I know that our wives were very encouraged by the time that we had together and they were like, go, be with these guys. You’re going to gain some perspective. You’re always going to come back, like you said, Tim, a little more encouraged.

I will tell you one of the things that the time did for me. This was just a slow progression, but what a gift this was. I had pastored for so many years, 27 years, and I was so used to wearing that hat of Pastor Vartuli. I’m a chaplain now, I do hospice work, but back then it felt like I needed a title. I needed something to describe who I was. The Lord graciously did wonderful things while I was a pastor. I have a lot of gratitude from when I worked in the churches. But the Lord really wanted to get down to something deeper than that. He wanted me as a person, as Anthony, to emerge. And over that period of time meeting with you guys, I believe that really happened more. Today, yeah I’m a chaplain, but I really don’t care about that title. What I care more about today is just meeting people as Anthony and allowing, as the Spirit permits, to speak about the struggles that are going on in my life, if appropriate to speak about, and to speak about the incredible ways God is moving in my life and just meet soul to soul.

I think it was probably providential that we didn’t get on yesterday. Maybe we were all needing to be more prepared by the Spirit. But even now, as I talk to you guys, I feel like this is soul to soul, this is very incarnational. I could weep about it really, to think about, just the gratitude I’ve had for you guys. Duncan, like you said, we’re picking up where we left off, but to think that the Spirit right now is with us, right in this moment, as we’re talking, is an astounding realization. To believe Father, Son, and Spirit eavesdropping in on the conversation and doing what they do best. To redeem us, to instill courage in us. One thing I remember you saying, this was at a particular time we were meeting Tim, you said something like, how much time do we really have left? Maybe 15, maybe 20 years. We can do that. We can do it. And we laughed so hard.

Tim Burke: We got a lot less now than we did

Anthony Vartuli: Yeah, exactly right. By God’s grace, we have 15 or 20years. We’ll see, that’s up to the Lord. But I just remember thinking, that’s so true. We can do it. We’re struggling hard, but we can do it. There’s a better day coming, and the best is yet to come. I think we said that a lot together. The reality of that reality that heaven is coming gives us strength and courage to move today, in whatever the Spirit wants us to do.

Tim Burke: YeahThe difficulties that we’re going through now, this is the last time in all of eternity we’re ever going to go through these. 76 is the average age a man dies. I’m 64, that’s 8, 12 years. I’ve got 12 years of hardships and getting to see the Lord in the midst of that doing whatever He does, but it’s just 12 years of hardships. Even if it’s just really brutally brutal. 12 years and then I got Eternity. We can do that. We can do it.

I just think, here’s another thing. You two will get it. You guys watching or listening to the podcast, you won’t get it because you don’t know me. Two weeks ago I had to sell my motorcycle.

Duncan Sprague: Oh no.

Anthony Vartuli: Oh my gosh.

Tim Burke: See, those reactions tell it all. I loved my motorcycle for 30 years. My wife bought me a Harley when I retired from the major leagues. And so for 30 years, I’ve just had a love affair with the bike. God meets me on the bike. I have great times. It’s incredible. But, I had to sell it financially and stuff. Two weeks ago I sold it, and Christine wanted to talk to me about it the night before I took it in, and she asked, how are you doing, and stuff, and I just said, I can’t even talk about it, I just don’t even want to talk about it. I didn’t, and then I went to bed. Then I got up, got on the bike, and went to the gas station. I got a 45 minute ride to the dealer and I got on the bike and immediately God took – you guys are caught up on The Chosen and watching The Chosen?

Duncan Sprague: Sure.

Anthony Vartuli:Yeah. Yeah.

Tim Burke: It’s incredible. Anyway, the last episode of season three focuses on Psalm 77, part of it. God just took me right to that where it says – it’s just so cool the way they do it in the show – I will remember the deeds the Lord has done. As soon as I got off the bike at the gas station, that popped into my head. I was so sad and bummed, but then that popped into my head. And then all of a sudden I’m thinking about 30 years of my bike and my experiences riding through every Rocky Mountain Road in Colorado and loving it, and being around in Tennessee and the Natchez Trace Parkway, all these different experiences.

Anthony Vartuli: I always love the stories.

Tim Burke: I was overwhelmed with thankfulness for having what I had for 30 years. I just let the Lord just go and he just took me through all these memories, and I was just thankful. I remembered that was a gift from God that I had; an unbelievable, passionate gift He gave me.

I got there and did the transaction. Christine and Nicole came 15 minutes later and picked me up. So I get in the car and Christine goes, how are you doing? I said, you know? I’m pretty good. I am thankful. I’m telling you, I would not have had that perspective in 2014, 15, 16, 17, when we were meeting you guys. I wouldn’t have done that. But God has brought me to a point where He made even selling my bike okay. You guys can understand that. Even since then it’s been like, great, it’s okay, no problem, that’s where we’re at, and that’s growth. We’re going to make it through.

Anthony Vartuli: I’m going to tuck that one away and hold on to it, because I know how meaningful the bike, motorcycle was for you. Just to hear you talk about it feels like trembling and trusting.

Tim Burke: It just blew me away. It still blows me away. God, you did that, you made it okay. We’re going to make it, we’re going to be okay. But when you see a solid example of growth, that’s something God did. Yeah. And man, we wouldn’t have been able to do that 10 years ago.

Duncan Sprague: The thing that that strikes me is, it’s not the last time that any of us are going to do that. We’re going to take a lot of things that we have valued in life and we’re going to say, thank you for the season, Jesus, this one is yours. Horrors that come our way, we may do that with wives, with children. They may do it with us, where we go, thank you for the season and help me in those transitions the same way every other transition you walked with me. If Tim said, we’re still here, Anthony always said, the best is yet to come. The truth is, that’s real because of the hope we have in Jesus. Tim, I have one request. The first ride in heaven, I want to go with you because we never had a ride here on earth.

Anthony Vartuli: Duncan loves motorcycles as well.

Tim Burke: Absolutely, yeah. Tose roads are going to be streets of gold, that’s going to be fun.

Anthony Vartuli: I’ll be riding on some angel or something like that. You guys can be on heavenly motorcycles.

Duncan Sprague: Is that the brand?

Anthony Vartuli: Yeah, who knows what the brands are? Boy, we’ve gone 45 minutes. I would love to…

Tim Burke: Take a break and then go another 45?

Anthony Vartuli: We could easily, right?

Tim Burke: We’ll have to do that off camera.

Anthony Vartuli: This is so wonderful.

Duncan Sprague: We’ll do it again.

Anthony Vartuli: I guess I want to ask you guys one question. What would you want to say? What would you want to leave the people who are watching, who are longing for something like what God has given us? What would you want to leave them with? What would you want to say to them? If anything at all.

Duncan Sprague: I have an immediate thought. In a world of isolation, do life together. Find friends, spiritual friends, mentors. Don’t abandon relationships, that’s the easy way out. Larry’s commitment was to a relational revolution, that we would find radical discipleship through relational risk. And that’s, I think, what we’ve experienced and that we’re richer because of it. We’ll go to our graves – Larry always said, I want to go to my grave without any secrets. You guys carry secrets of mine so that I don’t carry them alone. Don’t live in a world of isolation. Do life together. That’d be my thought.

Tim Burke: Yeah and like I said, when we got together, my perspective changed. It didn’t change when I was just sitting there by myself. I’ve known myself for a long time now. I can’t trust my perspective. It changes and shifts. But with other people, it’s a lot easier to get our perspective back where He wants it when we’re with other guys. I always equate it to, the Holy Spirit is in me, He’s in Anthony, He’s in Duncan, but sometimes, a lot of times, I’m just by myself, and so the Holy Spirit is just sitting there and He’s not getting stirred up. But then, all of a sudden, the three of us get together, and maybe the three of us are just caught up in life, and the Holy Spirit’s in us, but it’s just sitting there, and it’s like chocolate milk and some chocolate syrup at the bottom of a glass of milk. We get together and then all of a sudden we’re encouraging each other and it starts getting stirred up and then the chocolate gets mixed in with the milk. And now all of a sudden it’s like it’s full and that’s what happened time and time again. And it will happen whenever we get together with other men that are wanting to finish well and to press on where we’re at now.

Anthony Vartuli: I appreciate it guys. The thought that comes to my mind is very much along the same lines as what you guys just said. I don’t know if this is Eugene Peterson, whoever it is, such a good quote. We cannot be ourselves by ourselves.

Duncan Sprague: That’s right.

Anthony Vartuli: The Trinity is a relationship of three: Father, Son, and Spirit. We are made in the image of God, which means we are made relational.

Duncan Sprague: That’s right.

Anthony Vartuli: We walked relationally together. We would all use that word. We walked relationally and still walk relationally together. And that doesn’t mean it was always easy. There were awkward times…

Tim Burke: I think there were more hard times than good times that we were going through back then, but even in the hard times, it was okay. Something good came out of ’em. I love that. I wouldn’t have wanted to get together with you guys if we all had our lives going great. It wouldn’t have been as thrilling.

Duncan Sprague: I wouldn’t have fit in.

Anthony Vartuli: Guys, we could go on and on, but I think we need to stop here and let the Spirit do what He wants.

Tim Burke: Thanks Kep for all you’re doing.

Anthony Vartuli: Yeah, thank you Kep, and thank you Larger Story, and thank you for all the people listening.

May the Spirit of God do whatever He longs to do in your life, and may you trust Him to do it. Thank you, and take care.

Tim Burke: Thank you.

Message

Inspiring a Community of Belonging | Ep. 17

May 16, 2023May 23, 2023
by Kris Gamble

Show Notes:

How is meaningful community formed? How can we join with the Spirit in making space for people to belong and be known? Listen in to a light-hearted discussion between Kris Gamble and his former roommate and friend from high school youth group, Joe Spiccia, as they discuss the origins of meaningful communities, they have both belonged to and helped to form.

Order your copy of Rea Church: https://store.largerstory.com/products/real-church-does-it-exist-can-i-find-it

Joe Spiccia’s Bio: Joe is the Content Director at Fresh Harvest in Atlanta, Ga. He and his wife, Jordan, live with their dog Oscar and four chickens. Joe enjoys fishing, exploring new ideas, and getting absorbed in meaningful conversations with those around him.

Transcript:

Kris Gamble: Welcome everyone to the Relational Spirituality Podcast. My name is Kris Gamble. I’m your host for this week’s episode, and today I am joined by one of my good friends, Joe Spiccia, or Spix-ee-eye-ay as Siri likes to pronounce his last name. This week we are chatting around the theme of community. The Book of the Quarter at Larger Story is Real Church and it talks about what really is church and community therein.

Joe has been somebody in my life that has been an instigator of meaningful community, almost just out of what seems like the overflow of his being. Hopefully we can mine a little bit of his mind and dig into some of those stories and just see what God might have for us through this time.

I wanted to start off and give a little context. I met Joe about 20 years ago. I don’t remember our specific meeting, but we met at a church that we were attending and did the youth group of through all of our high school years.

We also, for the latter part of my high school years, went to the same high school and occasionally, and speaking of community, I’m a year older than Joe so a grade ahead of him, but some of my guy friends from church, as a part of what we just somehow fell into doing, we played poker many nights on the weekends throughout high school. Joe, I think you made it to some of those occasionally. Is that correct?

Joe Spiccia: Yeah, I’ve never won a dollar ever.

Kris Gamble: Well, yeah, we don’t condone gambling here anyway, so that is maybe a sign of your purity, Joe.

Joe Spiccia: Yeah, that’s what it is.

Kris Gamble: Joe and I were actually roommates for a few years after college into our late twenties and early thirties.

I would say that we refined each other into the godly men we are today, which helped us to meet our lovely wives. So, community is important because if you’re single, it’ll help refine you to meet your spouse.

Joe, as I mentioned, has helped form some communities, and I’m just going to briefly touch on them here and hopefully we’ll jump in a little bit deeper.

Somewhere after college, around 2014, 2017 ish, Joe invited myself and a bunch of other mostly single folks to a thing we called “Cabin Weekends,” where we would rent a cabin and just have meaningful community centered around the thing that united us, our faith and they were like at a lake or by a river and we’d go fishing and hang out, and it was really just a place that I felt like I belonged in my latter twenties. We have made such great memories and have such wonderful stories out of that.

Another place where really meaningful community happened was, around the same time, Joe and I were looking to move into the downtown Atlanta area, so he, myself, and a few other guys ended up getting a house. And that was a place where, for a number of years, we really got to spur one another on and be accountable and just talk about what different seasons we were in, in our spiritual journeys. It kind of became a place of a community gathering, where we’d have, you know, house parties, not like wild, crazy ones, but bonfires in the backyard.

In and around that time we were part of a men’s group that Joe also initiated, and that just took the whole community and spiritual formation and intentionality thing to a deeper level. So, that’s kind of why we’re here, Joe, is to learn from the master. Really, I’m just glad you’re here. We’ve thought through some questions to talk about and I’m looking forward to digging in with you.

Anything you want to say or share after that long intro?

Joe Spiccia: Yeah, I think so. So first off, I’m grateful to be on this podcast with you, Kris, and I actually call Kris, Cris-ph. I don’t know why, but he calls me Joe Spix-ee-eye-ay, I call him Cris-ph. There is like a lot of little consonants that get added in there at the end, so if you want to start calling him that, you’re totally welcome to. Kris has – he’s talking me up and all that stuff, but my first caveat is that I feel like a complete newbie when it comes to these things. I think part of that is actually because I’ve never done them just alone. When I think about all those stories you’re telling Kris, especially like moving into the house, Kris came to me and we met at Little Azio on Howell Mill Road in Atlanta, and he was like, I’m looking for some guys to live with, but I’m not just looking for just a roommate situation, I want a community.

I think there’s an element of Kris bringing this intentionality too, not just trying to live within a house, a place where you sleep and eat and all that stuff, but he wanted an actual community of people that were intentional about pursuing their faith, pursuing friendship, pursuing community.

I think there’s something that we will hopefully get into today, about, this isn’t all on one person’s shoulders to foster community. There is an initial initiative that’s taken by one or two people, but what I think really leads to these things is people realizing, I want this, and let me find some other people who also want something. We don’t even have to have a name for it. We just know there’s something that we want, and we hope it looks something like this. And then that drive’s there, that’s attractive, and other people want to be a part of that. And I was like, yeah, that sounds great. I want to figure this out, and I just knew a bunch of people who were kind of in a similar stage of life.

There’s multiple roles to be played in a healthy community. I’ve really learned that in this process of being friends with you, Kris, and all the other guys that we’ve met and lived life with along the way. So yes, I guess all that to say, I’m grateful and I love talking about community. I love dreaming about it and also living it, and I think that’s probably the most important part of it. So yeah, I’m looking forward to the questions and what we’re going to get into.

Kris Gamble: Thanks for sharing that. Yeah, it isn’t on one person’s shoulders, and I’m glad you made that distinction. So, jumping in, what is community, and maybe more specifically, what would you say is meaningful, effective christian community?

Joe Spiccia: I’ve been reading a book right now with a group that I’ve been a part of with my church here in Marietta, Georgia. I’ve read it a couple times actually, and I really have enjoyed the depth that it’s been pulling out of me. It’s called Emotionally Healthy Spirituality. The author is Peter Scazzero, and he has a couple quotes that I’ll reference here, but this one came to mind. He said, “Community is not just a group of people who agree with each other. It’s a diverse group of individuals who are committed to loving and serving one another.”

I think it’s so easy to think about community as just, what’s fun and who are the people that are like me that we’re going to get along and have a good time together.

That’s a beautiful thing too, that’s just a very base level. I’ve realized that that’s not bad either, because it does lead to this other thing, which is committing a commitment to loving and serving other people. But I guess the diversity of a group as far as, we just don’t all agree on everything, we have conflict, that’s normal community, and I think it’s easy to shy away from that. I guess there’s a lot of different definitions of what community is and what it can look like, but that’s one that really stood out to me.

I think another really big one for me is that community is a gift from God. It is truly a gift of Him inviting us into sanctification. We’re all born into a family, which is like a type of community. Some of us aren’t in that family for long and other ones have an amazing family that we’re with for the rest of our lives. God gifts us either that type of family, or leads us into a family that allows us to see who we are meant to be.

I think that, for me, is what community is, is an opportunity and a gift to explore who God made me to be. In that process of identifying that better and better, as I get older and experience more community, I am able to do the same for other people. It’s this real back and forth, and it’s this cycle of this really beautiful gift that, the more we open ourselves up to other people, the more they will open to us, and the more we grow closer to God.

I think, obviously, there’s all kinds of community; you could have a really negative community too. That’s where I think the biblical version is something to strive for. A community that pursues the heart of God and allows God’s heart to pursue them. It’s a process that I think of, of God making us more like Him. He uses other people around us to do that, whether they’re totally different than us or they’re similar in their backgrounds and their personalities.

There’s a lot of thoughts there, but that’s my idea of community.

Kris Gamble: When you said community is a gift from God, I thought about how community is also a reflection of God, God being in community with Himself. And so when we are fellowshiping – fellowshiping is a christian-ese word for hanging out and having fun. But when we’re enjoying one another, we’re actually reflecting the joy that God has in Himself and it’s on display through us.

Those are some Larry Crabb derived ideas that I ascribe to. I also think community could be a label or a term that defines a group of people that are somehow interconnected; I’m in the community of Savannah, or the community of Wilshire Estates – which sounds much more fancy than it is – yet I might not really know anybody all that well in my neighborhood community. There is something about a biblical community that is worth digging into.

Joe Spiccia: I’m going to throw out a couple quotes here.

I had one more quote on this that is in line with what you’re talking about, but it was another Peter Scazzero quote from the book. He says, “We can’t grow in isolation. We need others to become who God has called us to be.” And that was sort of what I was searching for, that community is a catalyst for spiritual, emotional, mental growth. It is God’s gift to us in that way. From the biblical perspective I personally see this as God’s heart – like you’re saying – He’s always lived in community. God never had isolation with the Trinity. I think His heart is just that His creations that are made like Him would also be in community as well. So, defining that through scripture, I’m curious what you think about that.

Kris Gamble: Well, Hebrews 10:25 essentially says don’t forsake gathering together.

Also, Acts 2:42-47 is probably worth reading. “And they devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers. And awe came upon every soul, and many wonders and signs were being done through the apostles. And all who believed were together and had all things in common. And they were selling their possessions and belongings and distributing the proceeds to all, as any had need. And day by day, attending the temple together and breaking bread in their homes, they received their food with glad and generous hearts, praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to their number day by day those who were being saved.”

I think this is one of the best pictures of the New Testament church that we have in description.

A couple things that we can draw out of it: a biblical community is gathering and they are studying God’s word. They’re enjoying one another, and I think mixing in some food and prayer is an important part of a christian community. The don’t forsake gathering I think is just a call to not be isolated.

Joe Spiccia: I’m just thinking, how does that look for where we are in this culture right now? It can sometimes be difficult for me to distill down the Church of Acts to my life.

Some of those takeaways, like get together and eat food together, very basic things, right? But that’s the building block; we all need certain things, so let’s go do those things together. And then at the same time, there’s a deeper element of prayer in singing worship and of being intentional about worshiping the Lord and about pursuing God together.

Whether we’re going to read scripture, or we’re going to talk about scripture that we don’t understand and that we have problems with. I think there’s a really honest version of this for me. I don’t know that I am always there and ready to say, let’s go do a service project for the Lord today, or whatever it is; maybe it doesn’t feel like I’m hearing from the Spirit, or God doesn’t seem like He’s talking to me. But just being with other people and other believers, being with somebody like Kris – for me, in these settings there was a conviction level, there’s an intensity and a passion here, and there’s a newness to the perspectives of different members of the community that have always driven me closer to God, wanting to know God more, wanting to explore Him more.

That’s what Acts 2:42-47 really looks like in my life; being around others and letting the Lord use them, or letting Him use me in moments where my faith is strong. Kris, I think you used an example of this in our guys group at one point, an analogy of a fire and how some of us are really close to this fire and we are warmed by it, and we walk into a crowd where it’s colder and that warmth really reaches those people – other christians maybe, or maybe it’s not christians, but there’s something attractive about that. We want to be around the warmth. I think, trying to distill it down in my own experience, it’s often looked realistically like that.

Kris Gamble: One thing I love about you, Joe, is your humility and honesty; even now readily able to say, “When I picture community, sometimes it’s not as perfect as we see in the scripture here, and that is my reality and my real life.” And it’s everyone’s, it’s mine too. Nobody’s able to live out every time you get together studying the word and prayer and singing songs. I don’t even know if it’s necessarily that that has to be every time you gather, but a picture of some amount of their gatherings.

I wanted to just dig in on the same kind of theme about markers of biblical community, and popping over to another scripture, James 5:16 says, “Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working.”

I love this verse. It’s a hard verse because there can be fear and shame associated with sins, and there’s so much cultural baggage around confession and why do I need to do that? A culture that often touts accomplishments and independence. But I think good, biblical communities are, marked by the humility of confessing our sins.

This scripture is telling us such that we may be healed. It could mean a physical manifestation, but I imagine on some level it’s the release that comes from letting light shine on the dark places. In particular when you do that, doing that as – in Larry Crabb-ism – looking ugly in the face of love, realizing that you still are loved, even though you’re showing something ugly, is a healing thing.

Joe Spiccia: Yeah this is the verse that really takes community to, not even the next level, it’s the next level beyond that. I think there is a bit of a cultural stigma to the word confess. Why do I need to confess?

Let’s talk about it from a human perspective of being honest about where you are. Maybe you are doubting God or maybe you are struggling with some sort of sin that’s more overt; maybe you’re looking at pornography or whatever it is. There’s a tendency we all have to hide that stuff, to push it down and keep moving. I think that’s part of our Western culture, let’s just be productive, let’s just move through it, let’s not talk about it. But God invites us into that and He does that through community.

A lot of times, my idea of God has been shaped by seeing others confess and Him letting me see people humbly stopping and saying, this is something I’m trying to hide from myself and from others and from God, and I need to let it out there, I need to bring it into the light.

It’s so refreshing. I think, for me at least, to be a part of that where you can be totally honest – scary honest – you are taking a big risk by sharing something with other folks. And it is so rewarding to feel that moment of, we love you. I love you, even though you have all these things and you have these doubts.

That is God’s heart. If that happens in community, and I tell Kris something really hard that I’m going through and he accepts me and he loves me and he tells me he’s going to pray for me and he wants to be there by my side, that’s powerful. That shapes my vision of who God is and how He stands for me.

From a person to person perspective, it takes time to cultivate this, but it is so life-giving and so rewarding to be a part of a community that fosters honesty and confession to one another, and it just makes you want to confess to God because you know that He is the only one that’s capable of forgiving you, but also the one who loves you more than any anybody else.

Today I had a small group meeting with the guys group that I’m in, and we were talking about this weekend. I just had a tough struggle with my wife.We were having a hard time and we’ve had a hard time at various points in our relationship.

One of them reached out to me and said, “Hey, how can I pray for you?” She was about to walk through the door, so I’m like, “Oh gosh. Well, I need to be humble. I need to be calm. I need to not be defensive, which is my tendency, and I need to be straightforward and honest and I need to listen.”

And literally, they prayed for that and that happened, and there was just a real restoration for us – me and my wife – and there’s something about that. That in itself is a confession, I think. The way I’m thinking about confession is that if you would rather not tell other people about it, and then you decide to tell them, that’s a confession, whether you’re trying to hide something wrong that you did or just something that you’re struggling with.

Being able to submit that to other people and to dive into it, I think is an opportunity for God to answer the prayer in whatever way He wants to answer it. That’s us, depending on God, and it takes humility and that’s His gift to us.

Obviously, I’m passionate about this; being open and honest about where you are with other people and knowing that that is something that can really bring us closer together, but also bring us closer to our creator.

Kris Gamble: Right. Yeah. When we were back at the question of what is community, sort of three words we’ve added to our tagline for the Relational Spirituality podcast come to mind: belonging, being known and becoming. I think one of the things about being honest – confessing is how we are known in our good light, but also in our fallen humanity side. And how known are we if only the good side that we present of ourselves to others is held up, and that is all people see?

I chatted a little bit on my previous podcast about brotherhood, we chatted a bit about confession there, so if you want to get even more, check that one out. One of the other markers of community, and we kind of touched on it even in Acts 2, but 1 Corinthians 14:26. What then brothers, when you come together, each one of you has a hymn, a lesson, a revelation, a tongue, an interpretation. Let all things be done for the building up or the edification of the body.

I think edification is a goal of community. I think one thing I extrapolate out of this verse is that there can be different gifts that members of the body have and that we bring into the community and that they are to be brought for the building up of all of us. Some of that is singing hymns – we’ve had poetry reading nights – or just just reading nights together, lessons, sharing teachings of what God has put in our hearts.

Any thoughts there?

Joe Spiccia: Yeah, I think about our guys group that we had and we rotated who facilitated the group, and each time we gathered somebody new, they took us through something that they were learning or scripture of some sort. I think more than just, “everyone’s got to facilitate, that’s the rules.” I think what it did was it helped us understand ourselves a little bit more as individuals too. Think, what is my gifting? I think a lot of people don’t know that, and it is a great place to learn that in a safe community of other people to say, “You know what? I don’t really know what my gift is, so I’m going to try and facilitate or lead a conversation or I’m going to do something creative.” It’s a place to be encouraged in those things. Like, “Man, you really brought that, that was really helpful. I really took a lot away from that.”

That’s where you learn what your giftings are from the Lord, in that community. It’s okay to not come into it knowing like, what, what am I, what am I gifted with? because that’s part of the process of just being with other christians is like learning that about yourself, which is another gift really.

[00:27:58] Kris Gamble: Right. In Acts 2 they sold their possessions such that they gave to everyone that had need. It makes me think about the marker of taking care of each other and serving one another. To your point, as you are serving, you realize, “Hey, I’ve got a gift for this hospitality thing, or a real passion for reaching our neighbors.”

Great point to say that community is also just a place to learn what God’s deposited in us, and the way that we can serve and love each other as we seek to follow His commandment to serve and love each other.

As you said earlier, there’s a ton of scripture on community. 1 Thessalonians 5:11, “Therefore encourage one another and build one another up just as you are doing.” And Hebrews 10:24 just before the one that says, “don’t forsake the gathering,” says “spur one another to love in good deeds.”

Any other markers you want to share on?

Joe Spiccia: There’s just so much. I feel like these are all tied together. There is just so much commonality in each of these verses. But in encouraging one another like it says in Thessalonians and building each other up, that really ties in with confession if we’re going to be vulnerable and real. A way to encourage someone in that, is by listening to them, by hearing them out. It’s not trying to give them advice, it’s being there for them and encouraging them, “Hey, you’re not alone in this. You’re not the only one to struggle with this. You’re not the only one to have these questions,” or whatever else it is. That’s encouraging. It’s not always, “You’re a great singer.” There’s just so many elements of each of these verses that all just tie in together. I feel like a big part of it is just understanding God’s heart and being in a place with other people and letting that come out of you.

I guess that’s one of those things that you live and you see it happen. The mystery of community is there’s not a vision of community that is going to be accurate. There was one other quote from, I think it was Dietrich Bonhoeffer in Life Together. He said, “The person who loves their dream of community will destroy community, but the person who loves those around them will create community.” Sometimes we can overcomplicate things. We can say, this is how it should be and I need to make sure I line all these points up. And that’s suffocating. People don’t need that to thrive. They need someone to love them to thrive and to know that they’re safe and loved and heard and listened to. So, if in doubt, simplify, and just try and love the people that are around you.

That’s a very broad point, obviously, but I think it can be easy to get lost in the shuffle. So, anyway, that’s my 2 cents on that.

Kris Gamble: Well, it makes me think of another verse, which is admonishing one another or exhorting one another. At the end of James it says, roughly, if you see your brother in error and correct them, you win your brother and save his soul, so to speak.

Not meaning you literally are saving him, but delivering him from that sin. There’s a place for correcting in love. It is loving to say, “Hey Joe, the way you responded to your wife just then wasn’t what I believe is how you actually feel about her.”

I am guilty of the same thing so many times, but I’d encourage you. There’s such a delicate finesse to correcting each other; there’s no formula for how any of these line up or are lived out. I loved your point about simplifying it by just trying to love.

Joe Spiccia: Even admonishing somebody comes with trust. To be able to do that for somebody, to say, “Hey, you’re in the wrong here,” that is earned, and you earn that through loving somebody well, listening to them, caring for them, and they trust you. All of that stuff really just comes back to the simple point of loving someone well, and that a good way to love someone is to correct them if they’re wrong.

Kris Gamble: It’s worth noting why community is important other than in a christian sense. It’s biblical and God inspired and all the points that we just mentioned to be known and be loved. But it’s also a place to exchange ideas if you’re in a diverse community, exchange culture, learn, and grow. I think one of the main points that I wanted to make here is something you said early in our conversation about how it helps us to become who God made us to be.

And it’s kind of intuitive to say that, but how does that actually happen? Just because you show up at community? I think, what’s underneath that? How do you become who you were created to be in community? That community is reflecting back to you how they’re experiencing you. So, you know, Joe, I experience you as somebody who has a gift for hospitality, A gift for allowing people to feel trusting of you and safe with you.

I think that reflection that the community offers back to us highlights and draws out things that maybe we weren’t even able to see ourselves. That self-awareness affords us the opportunity to cultivate those things or to change in the admonishing sense away from who is not our most truest self, which is the sin side of us, to our most truest self, which is the God-honoring side of us.

Joe Spiccia: I’ve learned so much about who I am in community, for sure, and who God has made me to be. It’s a gift that I don’t think you can get anywhere else. I’m not saying that people are God, but God speaks through people and you can hear God’s heart for you through people who are in your community. There’s discernment involved with that, of course, but it really does change how you see yourself, to be a part of a true community, a good community, a rich community where love is the baseline.

Also, in a very real way, there is opportunity with people you trust to say, “Hey, how do you perceive me?” That’s a really hard question to ask, and I’ve been blown away by people who have actually asked that of me. I have such mad respect for people who are willing to do that because it’s super vulnerable, but it also says, “I trust you. You’re a trustworthy person Joe,” and that means almost as much in itself as whatever I would share with them. So yeah, that’s a super cool element of community.

Kris Gamble: Getting a little more practical, how did these communities actually form, and particularly as somebody that’s been an instigator of community, what kind of thoughts do you have on that?

Joe Spiccia: If I think back on the house thing, I think it was you who said, “I want to do this and I want to do this in this way.” That really did inspire me and led me to, I think, take on more of that approach with my own desires of community in the future.

With the guys group, I remember feeling this deep desire to be growing in my faith and this conviction that my faith was stagnating at that time. I wanted something more than what I had.

Just listen to that voice which I believe is God saying, “This is who I’ve made you to be, go out and pursue this.” And then reaching out to other people and being vulnerable. It was scary, I sent an email out to 10 or 15 guys and just said, “Hey, here’s the thing. I’m feeling isolated. I’m feeling like I’m not pursuing the Lord. I love you guys and I want to get to know you better. I want you to know me. Is there anybody else who’s feeling that way?” It’s a vulnerable thing, to open that door, but, at least in my situation, it really paid off and it really spoke to other people who are feeling the exact same way.

I think a constant desire that people have is community, they just need someone to start it. That listening and then taking a step forward felt like the way that I’ve been able to pursue community, and then it ends up being this colossal, super meaningful thing in my life that I wouldn’t trade for anything.

So it’s totally worth the risk, I guess, is what I mean by that.

Kris Gamble: Was that email to 10 or 15 people, were those randos, or were those people that you had a decent depth of relationship with already?

Joe Spiccia: They were all people that I knew; some of them I knew really well, and some that I didn’t know very well, but mostly we knew each other. I would say that most of us have this fun element of, we love being around each other. It doesn’t have to be this challenging, hard thing necessarily, that I’ve got to put myself through this hard situation in order for community to happen.

I think in some ways it should start with, I want to enjoy other people. And in this case it was people who I already enjoyed, but even in that it still can be scary. It was a little bit, because you don’t want to put yourself out there, and then everyone’s like, “Nah, I don’t really feel that, I’m good or I’m too busy,” or whatever.

That’s part of my personality too, I can be a people pleaser and I really want people to like me, to agree with me. It makes me feel comfortable. So anytime I do that, it is a risk for me. But thankfully these are all guys that I knew and they were on board as well.

Kris Gamble: I’ve said this – maybe on another podcast, I can’t remember – that a currency of relationship is trust, and that maybe there was a trust coin out there that you had with some of those guys that you invited to cash in and say, “Hey, would you want to try this thing that may or may not fail?” It doesn’t necessarily have to happen with that currency coin of trust, but I think in church groups where communities form, there is a trust currency with the organization forming it that provides this stability for people who don’t know each other that well to be able to have some level of safety or the right ingredients to step out and try something new like this that can be risky.

I wanted to say that the email you sent casted a vision. Something that I think helps create biblical communities is a shared vision for what this thing is that we’re hoping to be a part of, belong to, and ultimately journey spiritually together towards.

I remember in those early days it ended up almost everybody you emailed showing up to the first meeting. In those first couple meetings we did do some vision casting where we were like, what do we want this to be? How do we want to structure it? Do we want to go through a book? Do we want to go through some sermon series? We somehow ended up on what you mentioned earlier, having a different person bring the Word, so to speak, each week. It was fun and beautiful and different. We did that for at least a couple years, meeting every Wednesday night.

Joe Spiccia: Yeah. With this group that I’m in now at my church, the point is to train us in how to have our own group that we will lead and facilitate, of other men. One of the things that our leader said was, we encourage and it’s a good thing to co-lead or find somebody else that you’d want to do this with. I think that is an approachable way that’s awesome. In something that somebody might think, I need to do this on my own and I need to be the leader, or there needs to be one leader. It doesn’t have to look any certain way.

There’s a beauty to, like you said, having a shared vision where me and Kris just get together and we say, “I don’t know if I’m going to do this on my own, but are you interested in this? I trust you and I know you, let’s both talk about it and figure it out. Let’s message some other guys that we know or whatever that looks like.”

There’s all kinds of ways and none of them are the right way.

Kris Gamble: I really like that point because Jesus sent the disciples out in groups of two – again, I don’t know that that has to be mandated to do it that way – But there’s a sense of accountability to staying true and one person not dominating when two people are leading out in that. In fact, two is a community of two that you are wanting to invite more into, in a sense. So, kind of multifaceted.

Joe Spiccia: Yeah. To some of the other points about how it’s formed, that shared vision obviously stands out.

The commitment is another piece that is tricky. I think that’s probably harder because you can’t make people commit to something, right? You can set up a structure and say, here’s what we’re going to do, are we all good with that? But we found in every group I’ve ever had or been a part of, there’s always people that will come sometimes and won’t come other times. Maybe there’s people who have bailed on groups in the past completely. And that’s just hard. It’s hard to deal with and it feels like your group’s falling apart or your community doesn’t have any structure to it. But it’s such a balance to be found; people have lives and they have their own things going on and their own agendas and priorities, but also we need structure if we’re going to make this thing happen. That’s where I do feel like either it’s co-leading or finding another group of maybe two or three other people who are on the same page as you, rather than saying, okay, I’m going to try and hold this thing together, because that is the burnout recipe for sure.

I think if anything, it’s more important to either be a facilitator for a church, so there’s that structure there that’s provided by your church, or you’re going into it with other people so it’s not just you trying to hold everything together.

Kris Gamble: To that point, I think the maybe more biblical or scriptural example, and I’m open to your thoughts on this, is that community exists within the context of a church such that the community is subject to the leadership and oversight and mentorship and vision of something bigger than itself. Again, it doesn’t always have to be that way. We had a wonderful community, some guys that all belonged to different churches coming together.

Joe Spiccia: My last point on how it’s formed goes back to honesty and a shared struggle. A really good community doesn’t necessarily have to be founded on, here’s the guy that’s got it all down, and then here’s the people who want to get it all down that are going to follow them. Oftentimes it seems like it’s almost the opposite. It’s, I am struggling here and I need help and I need community and I need more of the Lord.

That in itself will bring people together. And then from there, maybe there’s a common struggle or maybe there’s a group that forms to help someone else and that just leads to deeper community. Maybe it’s not a formal thing, maybe it’s an unstructured community, but that’s a good place to start too, I think.

Kris Gamble: Yeah. To that honesty and shared struggle, where have you seen community in your life done effectively and maybe conversely done ineffectively?

Joe Spiccia: I guess there’s been a lot of different versions of community.

Kris Gamble: Give us the juice, you know what I mean? Those raggedy institutions.

Joe Spiccia: The juice, yeah. I think a lot of times where I felt like this doesn’t feel like a good community to me is when it feels like there’s a really strong pressure to be there, and if you’re not, then you shouldn’t be a part of this group anymore. Or, the rules win, so if you don’t follow all the rules, then you’re out. Or, what we talk about has to be confined to these certain things. Again, it’s the structure versus the openness. I feel like what has most often gone wrong in my situations of community is structure gets way more of a priority and there’s just not any grace, and people don’t want to be a part of that, it’s just not fun and it’s not a picture of who God is and how He sees us. So I would say those are the main ineffective examples. I don’t want to name a particular group, but I think we’ve all been a part of a group like that.

I just, I do feel like there’s been so many versions of effective, but to me it comes down to, are we talking about what’s real here? Are we still enjoying each other? There’s a couple elements to it where we’re actually getting closer to each other in this process.

The guys group that we had was a version of, this is cool from a time perspective, – it’s been a couple years and we’re still meeting. How awesome is that? – but also from a depth perspective that we were able to get closer to each other and get closer to the Lord in the process and encourage each other and all those things we already talked about.

And then at the end to be able to celebrate and not be like, oh, it’s dead we’re not meeting anymore. God must be mad about this, or there’s something wrong with us. But to celebrate what God gave us in that period of time, I think is a sign that that was healthy; there was something effective about that.

Also, for a church facilitated group or a church sponsored group, the structure there that feels effective is that I’ve walked away with a feeling of, I’m cared for, I feel more known, I feel trusted that people want me to to be a part of this church on the whole, that they want me to lead in some sort of capacity.

I think there’s all kinds of different ways you can feel like it was effective, but the ineffective sort of comes back to the overly structured .

Kris Gamble: I’ve led some groups and I can have this tendency to try to over control the outcome or want to make sure that everyone’s sharing their story at some point, or that everyone shares, otherwise they’re not being authentic.

I think that pressure is such a good word. That pressure that people have to be a certain way, look a certain way, and the leader’s temptation to control it can quench the work of the Spirit

Joe Spiccia: Yeah, definitely. I think that’s a really good example. Another one is, do I feel listened to, or are people just vying to talk to get their point across? That’s a hard balance because some people are talkers and some aren’t. I think it oftentimes does come down to the facilitator or the leader and whether they’re able to navigate the different personalities in a group. That’s a really tough thing to do and I’ve seen it done well and I’ve seen it done poorly and I’ve probably been on both sides of that.

One last thing on that; I’ve been a part of a group that was what I would call transparent. And transparent is great. It sounds like you’re taking some risks, but really you’re just saying what is a fact or what is easy versus vulnerability, which is really taking a risk by saying it. That, to me, is what brings things deeper. Transparency is just surface level and pretending that you’re really going deep.

That’s a tough thing to distinguish and I think you can really only truly do that within yourself. That’s another one that I feel is ineffective as a participant in a group, at least you can say I’m really not sharing. I’m really not letting people know me even though I’m sounding like I am.

Kris Gamble: Another thought that comes to mind is asking questions and being curious. I think these are things that will draw out creating a space to feel heard. For people to be curious, but not necessarily leading so much as to where you think you want the conversation to go.

For example, if you shared something and instead of being curious and saying, can you share more about that? Saying, well, don’t you think that made your wife feel …?

Joe Spiccia: Yeah.

Kris Gamble: You’re asking question but you’re really just trying to make a point and that’s not curious.

Joe Spiccia: Yeah. And it’s not safe either. People will sense that. I shouldn’t share anymore because this is how it’s getting dealt with. So, yeah, that’s a big one.

Kris Gamble: Well, I think you’re somebody that makes people feel safe. I’ve seen people from all kinds of backgrounds and political beliefs and ideologies feel safe around you. I wanted to try to uncover, what do you think it is? Obviously the Spirit in you, and love, but what do you think it is that offers that safe place to people?

Joe Spiccia: Part of my background is that I have often felt unsafe. I felt like I needed to prove myself, so community for me was this sort of a safety net where – probably to some unhealthy extent – I found my worth in community. I think as that’s advanced, I’ve continued to really subject myself to other people and hear them take big risks with me.

That’s probably the biggest part from a human to human perspective is somebody saying, I’m going to share something with you because I trust you. Maybe I didn’t even earn their trust, but they were willing to go there. That helped me see what a catalyst for depth and richness and community with other people could be.

I think I’ve really tried to foster that in myself too as a result. Being a safe person I think comes from feeling safe, and that’s because other people have been that for me. It’s something that’s a byproduct of being a part of community with people who are healthy and know that you can be trusted and they can be trusted.

Kris Gamble: I think judgment is something that is not safe; judgment derived by thinking you’re better than somebody else because they struggle with X, and the reality is we’ve all fallen short and we all sin and we’re all capable. I don’t know if there’s particular scripture behind it, but I think we’re all capable of any sin given the right circumstances, whether it’s intoxication or just desperation. You know, who knows what we would do? We’re not above any particular sin, and if we go into group community or we go into relating and we have this pride or we have this judgment, that kills safety quickly.

I think humility and lack of judgment invites that safety.

Joe Spiccia: I’ve felt a fear of rejection for a lot of my life, and I think knowing that I’m not rejected by a person or a group of people, and that it’s not a one time thing for me. It’s been like a process.

Knowing that somebody’s not going to reject me because I tell them this about myself, that is what has allowed the door for me to be open to becoming safe in that way because it’s been given to me. Once you have that and once you see that it’s possible, you want to be that person for other people too.

I’m so grateful for those people in my life that have been non-judgmental of me. And you’re one of those people, Kris, for sure.

Kris Gamble: Well, thank you. The truth is, I’m often judgmental but I am not judgemental all the time and people see those times. Or I am being judgemental and it might be hurtful. Particularly with my wife, I judge her and she sees it and it stinks, but my goal is to not be judgmental. My goal is to be equal and equally as in need of a friend and of a savior.

Joe Spiccia: You brought up the point of marriage and I was thinking about that a lot because that’s something that I can forget is a version of community as well. Maybe not the exact version that we’re talking about in the broader context here, but people talk about the sanctification of marriage, it’s in the same way there’s a sanctification of community and friendship and all these things. What’s hard about marriage is you can’t escape from those deeper things in yourself, they just come out like they wouldn’t in other relationships. It has been such a good, healthy, difficult community for me in marriage, but I want more of that. You know? I want more of that with my wife and I want more of that with my friends because it’s sanctifying me. It’s chiseling out all of these things that I didn’t even know were in me. I think at the end of the day, if the result of community is that for me, then I want more of it.

Kris Gamble: Maybe one of my final thoughts here is, the goal of community is not to not hurt each other. It’s not to be perfect or look perfect. In fact, it’s almost the opposite. It’s to be able to be at the place where you can be who you actually are, which is broken, and therefore going to hurt somebody, and yet still being loved and received and forgiven and repentant and keeping that commitment to continue on.

Joe Spiccia: Yeah. Amen.

[Kris Gamble: Well, anything else you think we didn’t touch on? I mean, we probably hit everything that could have been said about community by now.

Joe Spiccia: Yeah, definitely. We didn’t even scratch the surface, but it’s a good start and I think it’s worth the time to think through, but also just to live; go out and talk to people and love people and know that community is surprising in the joys that it can bring and the growth that it can bring.

It’s the way that God intended it, for us to live in community. It’s a beautiful thing.

Kris Gamble: Well, thank you Joe for your time today; such a pleasure and I look forward to our next phone call when we do our micro community and catch up on our lives.

Joe Spiccia: Let’s do it soon, man. This is fun.Thanks Kris.

Kris Gamble:Thanks Joe.

Message

A Small Real Church | Ep. 15

May 2, 2023April 29, 2023
by Kep Crabb

Show Notes:

What can church really be? Where is “the Church” heading now? Kep chats with pastor Anthony Vartuli about the “small” church that they have been a part of for the past almost 2years – How do these kinds of deep relationships develop with the Holy Spirit’s leading.

Order Real Church by Larry Crabb: https://store.largerstory.com/collections/featured/products/real-church-does-it-exist-can-i-find-it

Anthony Vartuli’s Bio:

Anthony Vartuli served as a pastor in various different churches for 27 years. He has also served as a spiritual director in Larry’s School of Spiritual Direction for the past 7 years. Presently, he serves as a hospice chaplain. Anthony holds a Masters in Theology (with an emphasis in pastoral counseling) from Dallas Theological Seminary, a Masters in Biblical Counseling from Colorado Christian University, and a Doctor of Ministry degree (with an emphasis in Spiritual Formation) from Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary.

Anthony is married to Diane, who together have 3 children. Both have enjoyed a lasting friendship with Larry and Rachael Crabb since 1995. Larry has also been a trusted mentor as Anthony and Diane have dealt with both the joys and the difficulties of life. Anthony enjoys playing golf, reading books, and hanging out with his family. People have described Anthony as a calming presence, perceptive when it comes to the movement of the Holy Spirit in other’s lives, able to meet people where they are, not where they are supposed to be.

Message

Friendship that forms you into the image of Christ…

April 18, 2023April 14, 2023
by Kris Gamble

Show Notes:

We are created in the image of a God that exists in Community. On today’s episode, Kris Gamble is joined by one of his closest “brothers in Christ,” Taylor Huse, as they discuss: What is Christian brotherhood Biblically and what is it practically? What are some of the obstacles we face that can prevent this type of relating? All while sharing stories that span from being roommates and co-leaders of a ministry while in college to what their friendship looks like today.

Taylor Huse’s Bio:

Taylor, a former CPA and former attorney for the IRS, helps commercial and nonprofit entities with their tax needs.

He started his career working as a CPA at Ernst & Young for three years before enrolling at the University of Virginia School of Law. After law school, he worked in the Office of Chief Counsel for the IRS in Washington, DC for three years.

Taylor’s experience with nonprofits has given him an understanding of their unique goals and needs and fueled his passion to provide these organizations with quality legal advice and services. He spent part of his childhood as a missionary kid, including living in South Africa shortly after the end of apartheid, and in college he interned at the global headquarters of a multinational mission organization. In 2020, he co-founded a nonprofit organization dedicated to helping individuals experiencing homelessness and continues to serve on its board. Taylor also found time in law school to give back, serving as president of the Law Christian Fellowship.

Although he isn’t originally from Colorado, the area is a natural fit for his love of hiking and skiing.

Having just moved to Colorado, Taylor will work on federal tax issues until he is admitted to the Colorado Bar.

Message

A Larger Story “Real Church” Time | Ep. 11

April 4, 2023April 4, 2023
by Kep Crabb

Show Notes: An introduction to the book REAL CHURCH – This week we are changing things up a bit by having a little “church service” as Kep Crabb is joined by two of his good friends, Duncan Sprague and James Shelley. Join us this week for a time of worship and conversation about what church has been and what the church could become.

Order Real Church by Larry Crabb: https://store.largerstory.com/collections/featured/products/real-church-does-it-exist-can-i-find-it

Watch the podcast here: https://youtu.be/p0Yljnr3WkA

Transcript

Kep Crabb: Welcome everybody to the Weekly podcast brought to you by Larger Story called Relational Spirituality where you belong, you become, and you can be known. We’re doing something a little different today as we introduce a book that we’re going to be covering for the next few months for these podcasts. The book is called Real Church, subtitle is “Does It Exist and Can I Find It?”

So, we are going to have what we call kind of a Larger Story church time today. We’re going to do some singing, some talking, some worshiping.

[00:01:28] Worship:

[00:02:37] Kep Crabb: Couple of quick things before we get started here. My dad wrote this book in 2009, actually 2008 is when he wrote this book, Duncan can remember this, but he was right in the middle of drafting the book 66 Love Letters, which I believe is really his kind of Magnum Opus in respect to what he has written.

This book, he had to take a break from writing 66 Love Letters just to clear his mind a little. One of the things that he says in the book is he authored this book out of some of his frustration or disappointment that he has had with church. He used to say, he said this to me all the time, I would love to give up on church, but I can’t because Jesus never did. The book starts really with a question is he says, “Why don’t I like to go to? And I don’t think I’m alone.”

I think there’s a lot of people out there who are disillusioned. Well, I’m joined today by two of my closest friends. I have got James Shelley here, Duncan Sprague here with me.

I really wanted to talk to these two guys specifically about Real Church, what we’re gonna be talking about for the next few months in our podcast because they are in a little bit of a different place now when it comes to where they are in respect to church. Dunc and I have had many conversations about our disillusion with church and disappointment that we have had at times with church. I think James and I have had some of that as well, but James has been involved in his church, his local church now for a decade plus, where it has just been really feeding you. And blessing you in a way that is producing major fruit. And so to get the contrast between these two brothers as we talk about church today a little bit as we introduce this book to you all for this podcast series that’s going to be happening in the second quarter of this 2023 year. I would like to introduce Dunc on this side. Dunc’s been a pastor.

And James is a music leader at his church. And we did some music for you a little bit earlier. You get a chance to see some of that. Guys, thanks for joining me today.

[00:04:34] James Shelley: Good to be here.

[00:04:34] Duncan Sprague: Great to be with you.

[00:04:35] Kep Crabb: You guys have both read the book, and I know you’ve just read it recently and I’ve gone through it again recently too.

What are some of the things that stand out to you in respect to this book? James, why don’t you start as you’ve just recently read this and you are just now getting into kind of reading Larry Crabb a bit these days.

[00:04:49] James Shelley: It’s been a good journey so far. I mean I can see that where Larry was when he wrote the book, and were already past when he wrote it. And, quite honestly, if today’s social media and the things that are going on in this world that I do not know that it’s actually got better, on the churches front. In some ways a lot of things have just spiraled off and done different things over the last10 years with you know, the social media thing. It’s a book that is relevant right now. There are tons of people who are saying the same thing. Is there anything real? The things we see on social media, the things that are broadcast to us that we believe, and we isolate with those things.

Is church even real?

[00:05:46] Kep Crabb: You know, it’s funny because you think about church and has there ever been a golden age of the church? There really hasn’t. No. I listened to my dad talking at one time and he was talking about his mother-in-law, my grandmother, my mother’s mother. She was incredible, great woman, who my dad really enjoyed. Some mother-in-laws, I guess are less than that, but, he enjoyed her. She was a good person. And he said to her, later in her life, and she was an amazingly simple woman, but a good thinker. And he said to her, mother is what he called her, we called her grandmother. has there ever been a time where the church has been thriving or doing better? And she said very kind of matter of factly, plainly, no, it’s always been very hard. And I think that’s what’s happening. And to your point, James, I think it’s getting harder.

I mean, churches now Dunc, you and I talked about this. They are getting smaller. And church is really changing now in some ways.

[00:06:42] Duncan Sprague: With Covid, we had nobody going to church for a short time. And then when they started to come back, you saw that you didn’t have the same crowd that left, wasn’t the same crowd that came back.

I think the statistics, and I could be wrong on this, but there are still about 60 to 70% of the population of the church came back. Some churches are kind of breaking that trend and they’ve actually grew through Covid, and I wonder why that is? What made some churches grow in the middle of all that and others get sifted and, and weeded out?

I think what Larry is saying is even more relevant today because if Covid was anything, it was about the church. We see a global event going on, and I am sure that the headlines of Heaven looked really different than what we were seeing, whether we wear masks or get immunized, those were our headlines. But I think Heaven was saying “Watch what’s happening. Watch what’s happening because the church is going to come alive. I think that’s what Larry really was after. What is the kind of church that I want to go to? There was a, a sifting through covid that those who really wanted and felt a need and grew in a hunger and a thirst for Jesus actually hungered for community.

I think that becomes some of the theme of what Real Church is. It’s not defined by an individual, but by a community of believers coming back. That was the question that Larry asked in this book. What makes a gathering of Christians a church?

[00:08:26] Kep Crabb: And what makes it not a church? That’s where it’s just an activism wing of some sort or whatever you’re for. I mean, if you’re all about missional experience, that’s great, but that’s not necessarily a church. That’s right. He really unpacked some things in this book. What stood out to me as I was reviewing this a little bit today is how the church seems to have been a obstacle in our walk. James probably can’t see this as much because the church he’s involved in is so incredible. It’s just alive in neat ways. But it seems like there’s so many places where the church just seems dead. You and me Dunc, we’ve now been in church together for the last year and a half, or we’ve been in church together for the last 20 some years, but we’re again now part of a small group. That’s what Kimmie and I call our church. That’s kind of what we call church.

James said to me last week when he and I we’re chatting. He said, “don’t give up gathering together.” And I thought, well, are we still gathering together when we meet on Sundays?

And I think we are. We’ve had sometimes where even though we, we’ve got people from Florida and we’ve got people from New York we’re all over the country here, We’ve had some incredible moments. That have been just Spirit filled that I think have been nurturing to my soul.

[00:09:37] Duncan Sprague: Well, the difference is churches become a dialogue instead of a monologue instead of the show that happens up front with us as an audience. And that’s Larry’s question. Are you an audience or are you a community? And that’s the piece that’s happened is we’ve got a community, and this is the piece where I think we have to define what church is.

Years ago, I remember Larry saying that the church is God’s manifest presence here on Earth. It’s Christ’s body alive in this community in our world, where two or three gather in his name, there I will be the manifest presence of Jesus present in this World War two or three.

Gathered together in his name. In some sense, what makes church a church? I think church is a dialogue rather than a monologue, but it’s a community that is trying to push each other towards deeper and deeper formation into the image of Christ.

[00:10:47] Kep Crabb: One of the things that that dad talks about in the book is looking bad in the presence of love. Which is really a slogan that all churches should have. Because you come and you open yourself up and you’re being vulnerable in certain ways or authentic. Open in a that way. Things that are ugly in all of us. But yet God says, come on in you’re welcome.

[00:12:13] Worship: Amen. Oh, your promises are Yes. Amen.

[00:12:23] Kep Crabb: I’ve been to James’s Church, out east here in Colorado several times and had a chance to play in the worship team a few times. It’s just been such a blessing every time. Tell us a little bit about your church,

[00:12:34] James Shelley: bro. You know, it’s, uh, it’s out on the eastern, eastern plains, a little town of Strausburg. Our people started in the basement. It was a basement, two to three people, and it grew. God grew that through these past years into what it is now. And we are just really relying on what he’s doing with us. I feel like our church, we are separating from the pack a little bit is the authentic community and what I said earlier, don’t forsake getting together.

I remember when we opened back up coming out of Covid and the, the first service where we could have more than 50 people. The worship service that we had was so electric because people were. Longing, craving that community Yep. Of being able to rub up against their neighbor and mm-hmm. and do that thing because we were isolated so long, and we’ve talked about how Satan uses everything to isolate us and he tried really big with this covid thing to isolate everybody. That’s why our staff at our church was saying, this is a spiritual thing. It’s a spiritual battle that we’re going through. Our mandated, for our church is, fostering relationships by pointing people to Jesus – up in and out. Our up relationship with God is in relationship with people weekly and our out relationships, you know, people on the outside and monthly, things like that. And it’s just part of that thing of being, being community and being relational with each other.

And what here, for me, lately it’s been, how can I increase my desire or leaning on the Holy Spirit to increase my desire? Like Larry talks about a lot is fostering this or gaining this desire through asking the Holy Spirit to feed this desire to be closer so that the things, all the other things, the blessings become secondary. And we talked about first things and second things, you know, and that’s where I’ve been at the last two years I am finding in that groove of where I’m relying on God to create a desire, to desire him more. And him only. Daily momentarily finding that desire. So that’s kind of where the church is. Larry said in the book, I just want them to know I’m a mess and I come in as a mess and we’re all a mess together. That heart posture so that we turn it over, we turn over Lordship to the Holy Spirit and God, and then we move out of his so that he can work in us. And I think that’s happening in our church at the moment. The guys are starting to take responsibility in where we’re at. And it is just a wonderful movement that’s really going on right now.

[00:15:36] Kep Crabb: That’s a great question. What is the role of the church right now?

What’s going on because I think most of us can agree that we’re on a slippery slope, in respect to where things are going. Certainly, in the states now, you’re obviously more familiar Duncan with the globe in respect to how that works, and I know that the power of the Holy Spirit is on fire in other areas of the world. And that’s not to say that he’s not moving in the United States, iIt just seems that things have gotten so backwards and upside down. And the only way that I’ve been able to even make sense of any of this is that it is spiritual warfare.

And that’s the only way that you can make any sense of what’s happening. How can you make sense of this? Unless you say that we’re being attacked by Satan and the Holy Spirit is on the move. One of the things that dad talks about in the book is he talks about revival. And what does that look like? Now, one of the things that I’ve been really focused on, and you and I’ve chatted about this James quite a bit, is what does it mean to prepare for the second coming? Because the end times have almost been in place since Jesus went back to Heaven.

That was the beginning of the end times, I think. But now they’re coming to a culmination that seems in my own spirit that something is really happening. I am taking my salvation so seriously and how can I influence people that I know and love and want them to know that heaven is real and Jesus is coming.

[00:17:11] Duncan Sprague: I think the passage we’ve been referring to is that Hebrew passage, where it says, “don’t forsake gathering together, and all the more as you see the day approaching.” And it’s what we’re referring to as the day of the Lord.

But the reality is of we’re living here. Right? Because it means everything that is not love gets destroyed. Everything like that heaven will look on as just foolishness that has gone awry. That all gets burnt up, and we call God a consuming fire.

And we oftentimes look at fire as, is it good? Is it bad? Well, what’s it created for? Well, it’s good because it provides light. It also destroys, and we have to get it our grips on it. It’s good news, bad news. When the fire comes, because you sit there and go, okay, I’m ready because there’s a fire inside that can’t be quenched.

Even though everything around is being destroyed, I think we’re right in saying, we need to pay attention. But I think we’ve been in the last days ever since Jesus left and he says, in the last days, I’m going to send my Spirit. I’m going to pour it out. I don’t know if it’s 2000 more years or if we’re 2000 more days. All He says is live as if the day is today

[00:18:43] Kep Crabb: And that’s my point on the whole thing, is having that on the forefront of your mind. It really does change how you live. I mean, if, you know that you were going to die today, or tomorrow, would you pick a fight with your wife? Probably not. You probably wouldn’t watch much TV because you’re not interested in the sports team. You want to make sure you get your kids to, I mean, there’s things that would be reprioritized that are important. Well, if you think that way all the time. And really, Dad did. He talks about heaven in this book so much.

He talks about sin in this book and Satan in this book. And I think that the trick of the devil has been to make himself look like a cartoon character, not be taken seriously. The devil made me do it.

I remember many years ago when Jake, my son, was born, he was a few months old, and we were having his dedication service, at my folk’s house. And my dad’s prayer was, there is someone out there who wants to destroy this baby. Yeah, yeah. And I’m hearing this and getting crazy here and I’m thinking, wow, he really does hate us.

And you can see what he’s trying to do to the church now. In respect to where some of these things are going, what do you all have to say about that?

[00:19:54] James Shelley: Well, it’s the hope for me. It’s the whole parable that Jesus told about the 10 virgins and the ones that didn’t have their lamps with the oil and those that did, I think.

He made it so simple in some ways that we sometimes overlook. We overanalyze some of the things that Jesus told us we’re so simple. To be ready when the bridegroom comes back, be ready. I like what Duncan said earlier, it’s not going to be this, oh, happy day, this thing, because we’re gone in a moment’s notice. We are going to be looking around and not see people we thought were going to be around who say, who called me?

What happens when the Lord says, “I never knew, I never knew you.” That brings the hair up on my neck.

[00:20:41] James Shelley: It’s going to be one of those things where in this day and age, I don’t think you can just focus these days of fire and brimstone teaching in the church

Our pastor doesn’t really do that Our, our pastor is, he does a lot of relational things, and talks a lot about relationship and not only just be between each other, but between us. Our up relationship is where it starts. H

We realized that we can’t do it correctly if it’s not you over me. I have to be the first, but it’s you over me. And that’s where that gets lost here in this world, this, this time we’re in now. It’s amazing what’s happening out there is we have a lot of young couples.

I’m blown away every Sunday. I go out in the lobby and just walk through to go grab a donut or something and to see a couple of my close people that I talk to a lot, and there’s tons of faces that I don’t know. I always say, “What would it be like if everybody showed up at one time?” We literally would have no room.

I’ve seen our staff talk about spreading the gospel or sharing the gospel weekly. Every week. et ends up being a gospel call to come to Christ today, which is a good movement, I think.

[00:22:06] Duncan Sprague: The gospel’s not just good news to get me saved. It’s good news to keep me sanctified and moving in Jesus. Yes, yes. We forget that it’s not a one and done. I love what Larry used to say all the time. He would say, “God didn’t save me just to get me into heaven. He saved me to get more of heaven into me.”

Yes. And what I love about the way you talk about your church, James, is you are using relational terms everywhere. I think with all the missions work that I’ve done, I don’t like the word missional. So, what I end up doing is saying we’re involved in relationships all over the world.

It puts the focus back on every distinct and different people group. When I walk out into a field full Africans, I don’t look like them, I stand out, but somehow, I hold more in common with those believers that are there. I have more in common with them than I do my next-door neighbor that does not know Jesus.

Even though we are both Americans, I know below the water line there’s something that beats or a hunger. There’s a thirst to know God more. There’s also a sense of what this world has to offer will never fully satisfy. That’s the scheme of Satan is always, let me tempt you enough to say this will satisfy. That’s the lie.

But I think any of us, we’re all old enough. I’m not saying we’re old . I’m just saying we’re all old enough to go. We’ve tried enough things to go. Yeah, that’s not gonna. CS Lewis put it best. He says, if you find in yourself a desire that nothing in this world can satisfy, the best explanation for that desire is that it was created for another world.

That’s it. Amen. That Larry was so hungry for is what’s yet to come. The hope that’s to come rather than the commitments to, and this is where churches, I think get off base trying to make a better life for us now. Being part of church doesn’t make life better. It doesn’t make circumstances better yet that’s what some churches will preach. They’ll say, if you come to Jesus, it gets better now. And I know there’s a few verses that indicate that there’s something that changes, but the real changes at a heart level that something has in me that’s already to go into heaven. He’s given me a new heart.

A new passion and my deepest desire no longer is sin. My deepest desire is to do the will of God. That desire oftentimes gets covered up though by all these programs and projects and things. Next year, will mark 40 years of me having the title of pastor in some capacity. And what I’ve realized is I don’t want to go to church anymore.

I’m tired of going and doing the country club church or the rec center church or whatever form or fashion, the hipster church. What I do want to be a part of is a community that is intimately involved in each other to where instead of I’ve got a toothache. I don’t want to go to the dentist.

Well, wouldn’t the dentist be good? Yeah, but it’ll be uncomfortable and stuff. I just don’t want to go. That’s what we do at church so much. If I go to church, it’s going to be uncomfortable, but it’s actually going to be a place of healing. If it were a place where I could bring my pains. That’s what Larry was going after is there a longing that all of us, all the whole of creation along with us is in the travails of birth pains, and that’s what is going on. That’s the Romans 8 piece. We, along with all of creation, are in the travails of the birth pains of the children of God.

We’re all being born and there’s a birthday coming up. That’s what the day of the Lord is, is when the nursery gets full because everybody has been born again. Uh, into their final home, their final hope. But we think that it’s all about this life. And Larry was always saying, no, it’s not the birth to the grave. There’s a larger story going on.

[00:26:30] James Shelley: It is one of those things where I’ve been mulling over what real church? Real church. If the building is not the church. Ot programs and things and ministries are not the church. Who is the church? We are the church.

And what better place to start being real. Being real here because that’s where Jesus didn’t go to a building every day. No. He walked, he traveled and wherever he was, was church. You know, it’s that whole thing. So that is where, as I’m reading Larry’s ideas, what is it?

It’s starting to become; can I be real? And being real beads, like you just said, coming in and, and not necessarily having to say, well, here’s all my mess. Boom. Lay it all down. No, no. But know that in the smaller groups and the relationships that you formed, yes. They built small groups.

Things open up. That’s where you go deeper. You become more vulnerable. Not with the whole church. But in a smaller group. With a select group of people.

[00:27:38] Kep Crabb: It’s funny, Dunc, you said to me one time, and it goes along with what James just said, that there’s so many people that are in Christian ministry or whatever it may be, and they say, “we’re too edgy, we’re too, we’re, we’re too much for the church. So, we are going to do our things outside of the church.

And dad’s attitude was then, I’m not going to be a part of that. Because everything that we’re doing, has to be centrally in the church. We are the church. That’s where the deepest works happens. Dad’s biggest question was always, where does real change occur?

That’s right. And real change occurs, he would say. The simple answer, which of course when you unpack it is very un-simple. But when you see Jesus’s face. That’s when change really occurs. And I’ve seen that. I’ve seen that since you and I’ve met. I’ve seen that in you all along as well.

But, I’ve seen it in you so much, and I’ve just been so proud of you. And even in the podcast we did that we have notshown yet, that the people who are watching will get a chance to know your story a little bit after this, but how the Lord just grabbed hold of your life.

And He said, “I’m going to start to use you, James.” And you said, okay. And that’s what is most Impressive/exciting because if you’re not doing it through the church, and this would be my dad’s position, I believe. I think Dunc would agree, it is not something that has that value.

Someone told me one time that if you’re not doing something that affects the souls of people or the word of God, you’re not doing anything that has eternal value. That’s right. And so that’s what we want to do, especially here at Larger story. And as we get together in church, what does it mean to connect with people in a way that is only possible because you have the Holy Spirit.

[00:29:19] James Shelley: And how can we tap into that generation that doesn’t know about this? That’s the question. My kids are already grown and out of the house. I ponder sometimes of why some of my kids. Aren’t really into going to church. And then I look back when I was their age, I wasn’t into going to church either.

I had my back turned, but there was a time that I just felt he was always there. He never left me, he never forsaked me, never judged me for that. But there was a time when it all came back. And he called me back. That’s where I think that the, to be real, the real church, what is church?

It exists. You must find that group of people who are broken. YRealize they’re a mess, humbled, and have this desire to become closer to God that all other things should just fall away because we’re trusting him completely in Him, in God.

[00:30:14] Kep Crabb: I just love that, bro. And I mean, what I’ve seen and how the church has influenced you.

I like to think that I’ve been a part of that sometime and you’ve influenced me and you know. It’s just been so neat to see how the church is designed the way that God designed it. You’re an example of that. That is refreshing and encouraging.

You talk about how we take this to people like your kids, my kids. Some of your kids are married, one of my kids is married, you know, and everybody is out of the house. We are official empty-nesters.

But how do we impact that generation of kids? This is important. And it is critical. Yeah. It’s, it’s kind of pivotal in respect to how change really happen?

[00:31:01] Duncan Sprague: And here’s the hard part. We’re all dads who want to save our kids. And we can’t save anyone. We have to sit and go, okay, Jesus, they’re yours.

Until he’s desperate enough to say, I need you. He’s going to say, I don’t need him. They say my folks may have been weak, they may have, uh, not been as strong as I am, and that’s every prodigal. So the hard part is saying, okay, I got to rip up my job description as a father and say I will wait with God on the front porch for prodigal to come home.

Here’s what I trust now. I trust in the fact that they’re going to go out and try to make things make sense. They’re going to try to find fulfillment in all the same ways that the three of us did. And they’re going to maketheir choices. We hope that they learn some from our lessons, But the reality is they must go and make their own mistakes.

Where else could I turn for life? That’s where the hard part right now is to bite my lip, bite my tongue. And sit and say, “Father, you are the father of them. I’ll speak when they ask but let me at those moments speak only what You say yes and not my side pieces that I want to add to the story.

Good stuff.

[00:32:24] James Shelley: Yeah. Good stuff. Yeah, it’s just amazing here with my middle child. She’s connected in, but as of late, she’s been out there, you know, adulting by herself. So when you’re out there doing that and you don’t have a, love interest and you build these walls around yourself.

Because you’re out there by yourself, you’re out there grinding, and I’ve realized that, hey, if I’m talking about relationships, I need to offer them up. Say, Lord, please, I lift them up to you. But let them know, that I’m here. I’m the one that’s not going to leave you or forsake you either.

That’s right. And I think, if we we’re talking to people that we don’t even know and we start fostering those relationships, it’s the same way. I want you to know that like, God never forsake me. I’m going to try my best not to leave your Forsake you. Yo lead them along in discipleship.

And you know, honestly, I’m moving into eldership. In the church because I’ve been there a long time. It’s a natural progression, I think it’s just a natural thing where I told the staff when they brought this to me about the elder. Regardless of, all this other stuff, I’m still just a leader in the church based on the fact that I’ve been here a long time. And that’s part of the reason people look at you that way? Big change was before there was a lot of box checking for me, I was doing the worship team, so check. Worship check. And I was doing that and we had a special series that happened that brought to light that I was lukewarm.

To use a bit of Christianese, you know? I was that lukewarm person that, and God says, I would rather you be hot or cold. And I wasn’t, I was lukewarm, and I remember what he says he’s going to spew. So that changed me. It changed my course and it’s one degree of separation from where I was at, but in the long run, that one degree separat.

is a big gap. Yeah, it you That’s right. In a whole different place with even one degree. So if we can think of that one degree mm-hmm. of separation, the people we know and the relationships we know if we can bump ’em off course a little bit cuz Satan does that. Yeah. He tries to bump us off course every day.

You’re in a good spot and he’ll bump you, he’ll nudge you to try to get you off course.

[00:34:41] Duncan Sprague: He’s got a willing participant in my flesh. That’s where I love the fact that Larry concentrated. He goes, the devil’s going to be there whether we like it or, what, I can’t do anything about his attacks, but I can do something about the battle that’s going on inside of me.

Yes. The flesh and spirit battle. Yes. And he would always put that as the, the piece that we have the most control on. That’s the, I think it’s, uh, either first Peter two 11, beloved as aliens and strangers. So he reminds us of where we belong as aliens and strangers. Flee the fleshly lust, which wage war against your enemy.

The real battle is the one that’s going on inside of me. There’s fleshly desire. Prestige, pedigree, performance, all those different things that wage war against my soul. The humility to say, God, not my will, but yours, because your way is always better.

I have to be convinced every day. It’s not just when Satan is overt in that I go, oh yeah, I resisted the devil, and he’ll flee. But it’s, when he kind of sits back and says, oh, he’ll

[00:35:56] James Shelley: I think we’ve got to get off to a great start on this podcast of defining where real church can happen, or where real church really is, it’s with us right here in the spot.

When two or three or more are gathered, it’s, it’s a great stepping or a jump off point to the next series of podcasts. Yeah, it’ll be great. I think so.

[00:36:18] Kep Crabb: This has been fun. I mean, it’s fun to, to talk with you guys and see what the Lord’s doing. So before we wrap it up here, I do want to say, if you have not gotten a copy of your book, go to www.largerstory.com and order a copy.

We will send it to you right away. It’s a great read and it’s a, an important. Um, so as we wrap, is there anything else you guys wanna say?

[00:36:37] James Shelley: Man, I just dig the chance to be, uh, doing a podcast with you guys. It’s been a while and I’m glad that we’re now and that we’re all together.

Because I remember when we first met up, we were, we were buds, but we were far apart. We were all in our own little separate things and now we are, we’re much closer in proximity. Yeah. Because where we are, we were really locked in on our, on our faith walk and that’s, that’s exciting part for me. Well, it’s long overdue.

[00:37:03] Duncan Sprague: I think you just touched on what exactly God wants for church make us. Yeah. Um, that’s the way Jesus answered. That’s the way he prayed for us. As like father and I are what? Yeah. He says, father, might they, those who come after might they display the oneness that you and I have by their oneness with each other.

And all you’ve said is our. Our concentric individuality has come together and it’s not uniformity, but there’s unity as we come together where we go, oh yeah, you too, me too. Your father’s like that. No way. Yeah. So that’s, that’s where I go. That’s where you sit there and go, God. cars is a revival.

Relationally. Yes. Not just institutionally relational revival. .So that’s where the relational revolution that Larry was always talking about. Always talked about that.

[00:37:55] Kep Crabb: What great place to, to wrap this. Thanks for joining us. Hey, James. As we get ready to, to close, can I just get you to close this in a word of prayer?

[00:38:02] Duncan Sprague: Absolutely.

[00:38:03] James Shelley: All right. Uh, father, we just realize how holy you are. Uh, we just wanna just, hallow, be your name. Like you taught us how to pray, Lord, we’re just thankful that you, you give us the things that we need and the moments that we need them. We thank you for this opportunity to, to study this book.

We just, we just are, are so thankful that we got to know Larry in some fashion and how you used him Lord to. Even affect us still. The ripple that he caused Yes, ma’am. So many years ago is, is still rippling, it’s still rippling out. Father, just increase our desires, increase our want for you to keep the first things first as we’ve used as a cliche.

And, we just want to revel in your Honor, because it’s all about you, and we just love you so much, and thank you for all that you are doing for us. It’s in Your mighty name I pray.

[00:39:02] Kep Crabb: Amen. Thank y’all for joining us today. Join us every Tuesday for a new podcast with Larger Story on relational spirituality, where you belong, you’re known, and you get a chance to become.

James Shelley’s Bio:

James Shelley by day, is a product manager at Denver Hardwood Company, and has been actively serving in his home church as leader on the worship team for over a decade. James and Kep met in late

1998, they quickly became fast friends and brothers in Christ, and have played in a band together, led worship at each other’s churches, for nearly 25 years. He is proud to have know Larry, and is excited to see Larger Story grow. James and his wife Brandy have been married for 28 years and reside in a small town on the eastern plains outside the Denver metro area. They enjoy spending time together at Lake McConaughy in Nebraska in the summertime and are avid Denver Nuggets fans!

Duncan Sprague’s Bio:

Originally from the beautiful Pacific Northwest, Duncan Sprague grew up in the rugged mountains and river breaks of Northern Idaho. There, in his late teens, he became a committed Christ-follower.

Duncan completed an undergraduate degree in Bible and Theology from Multnomah University in Portland, OR. Throughout the 80s he served in multiple pastoral positions and regularly led summer mission teams overseas, where he met his wife. Duncan and Angie were married in 1990 and spent their early years of marriage on staff at Multnomah before moving to Denver in 1994. Both worked at Colorado Christian University while Duncan completed a master’s degree and internship in Biblical Counseling. After graduate school, Duncan spent several years in the technology industry, creating online curriculum. In 2001, Duncan returned to full-time ministry.

Today, Duncan is an itinerate, bi-vocational pastor and missionary serving with several ministries,
including Cadence International (Alumni Pastor) and International Christian Ministries (Bible Teacher, Trainer & Trip Leader). He regularly travels domestically and internationally to teach, preach and train local leaders and believers. Duncan brings a shepherd’s heart for spiritual formation and years of cross-cultural experience to everything he does. Duncan and Angie have four adult children.

Message

Book of the Month | Connecting | Guest Duncan…

July 27, 2022August 3, 2022
by Larger Story

Video

Book of the Month Webinar | July 2022 |…

July 27, 2022August 3, 2022
by Larger Story

About the book: In his most significant book to date, Dr. Larry Crabb expands on his lifelong work in the field of psychotherapy to adopt a groundbreaking, but biblical, approach to healing the deep wounds of the soul-an approach that centers around building intimate, healing mini-communities in our lives and churches.

Dr. Crabb envisions a day when communities of God’s people-ordinary Christians whose lives connect as husband to wife, brother to sister, friend to friend-will accomplish most of the healing that we now depend on mental health professionals to provide. God has deposited within us the power to heal soul-disease and that power is released to do its work as we relate to each other in revolutionary new ways. In challenging, practical language, Dr. Crabb shows us how.

Order the book here: https://store.largerstory.com/products/connecting-healing-for-ourselves-and-our-relationships

Blog

5 Anchors of Awareness for Spiritual Direction

January 6, 2022January 7, 2022
by Dr. Larry Crabb

1. Intentionally listen to another, not to be helpful but seeking an opportunity to create space for the Spirit to do the deep work that only He can do. How arrogant is it to think that I can go deep without the Spirit’s help/input.

2. Listen with dependent hope, embracing the truth that only God’s Spirit can move this person towards experiencing God by expressing God.

3. Listen with curiosity, with theology-directed questions (related to the story) that release the other to wonder about themselves within categories of understanding.

4. Listen for an opportunity to wonder together about a vision of how the other person could relate with another person’s spiritual well-being in mind. When someone starts seeing that, the knot in the soul is loosening into tangled threads. Those tangled threads open the mind and soul to new directions, to consider directions never considered before.

5. Listen for the faint music in the person’s soul that releases the rhythm of the new heart. When you hear the music, you try to put words to the music.

If they say: “This will be hard,” you may want to ask: “Can we add a comma there, and see if there’s something else? Can it be hard and hopeful, or hard and something else?”

But you need to prepare them that it’ll get tough. The narrow road narrows. Put words to the pull of the Spirit, and anticipate the obstacles.

-Dr. Larry Crabb November. 2014

Blog

Belonging

October 31, 2021October 31, 2021
by Larger Story

by Seth Gatchell

With God and with others, made for deep connection,

Both the longing to give and receive rich affection.

But when ugly self starts to demand its own way,

Connections will fracture; there will be hell to pay.

Connections can deepen when mercy’s a factor,

‘Tho weaknesses galore, far less of a matter.

At the foot of the cross everyone is equal,

Just wait until heaven, Oh what a grand sequel!

And shoulder to shoulder, let us together serve,

For Him and for others, resolutely not swerve.

Fellow soldiers are we, this fight against evil,

All the misery caused by ills of the devil.

This love celebrated is from divinity,

Let us reflect that love of sacred Trinity!

Life-giving love of God, like an underground spring,

Sloshing living water, and new life it will bring!

Blog

God Displayed

October 31, 2021October 31, 2021
by Larger Story

by Seth Gatchell

I think I “heard” God’s voice, though not His voice, per se.

“I’m glad that you are here. That’s true for you, alway!

Will you believe that’s true? It can anchor your soul.”

Something strengthened inside, drawn, yearns to be made whole.

Is the voice of God heard sometimes through a dear friend?

The whispers of God’s truth, faintly heard? Hearts to mend?

A sister’s thoughtful words pierces my heart’s hard crust,

Stirring thirst to please Him, and anchors me in trust.

Do the eyes of Jesus, look at me through your eyes?

Is that His care I see, power to break shame’s lies?

Is that His smile at me, the smile that’s on your face?

Can His smile through you break my shame? My guilt? Disgrace?

Does God’s Holy Spirit comfort me through your touch?

Does a friend’s robust hug galvanize me as such?

When someone is with me, a hand on my shoulders

Is that Your presence which helps me face my boulders?

Is God’s delight for you seen in my countenance?

Could my attentive glance give your heart sustenance?

If I had been with you, would someone know He came?

Let God be on display through me who bears His name!

Easy to love others when things are smooth and “right,”

But when in trials and pain, you’re in for a hard fight.

Self-centered? Justified? “Love pays this heavy price?”

Reflecting Jesus’ cross, in pain and sacrifice.

A Gen Z look at SoulTalk | Ep. 36

Have you met Larger Story’s newest team member? Join us as Rosanne Moore introduces Brittany Wood, our Gen Z addition to the team, and they talk about SoulTalk, what gets in the way of meaningful conversations – especially inter-generationally – and how we can be on the lookout for the ways God shows up in our daily interactions.

Subscribe: Google Podcasts | Spotify | RSS | More

The God of all Losses

Grieving is a deep and solitary work, but in the midst of my regret and sorrow, God has tenderly reassured me that as His beloved daughter, my deepest being has nothing to prove and nothing to lose.

In it for the Long Haul | Ep. 35

Three Friends Reconnecting: The Power of a Redemptive Chat Between Spiritual Friends. Conversing with soul friends on the journey toward home.

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